Genius Game Design Of Mgs1

Author	Message
Trouvailler	Posted: 14 Oct, 2021 17:44 Hey friends 👋 I wanted to start the discussion on which games you've played that have the best achievement design. Personally I prefer the core playthrough of the game with all the discoverables (not the same as collectibles to me) to be one set and have all the optional content, grind, RNG time trials etc to be "bonus" material. Which game encompasses your favorite achievement design(s)? What makes those designs stand out for you?
JayceEin	Posted: 24 Oct, 2021 08:37 Personally, I'm not much of a completionist but I love super hard boss fight achievements they make you feel so good and it gives you bragging rights to that particular boss or enemy
egg	Posted: 24 Oct, 2021 10:01 Last Edit: 24 Oct, 2021 10:36 No matter what, I give points to sets that have no missable achievements, and no requiring save states or other emulator specific features. After that, achievements should ideally not require nor reward guide use or looking up help. Cheat codes are definitely out. Beyond that however it becomes more subjective as to what requires a guide. And besides, official achievements break this rule of the time, so.. Ideally achievements should not spoil the game but I'll give leeway only when the spoiler succeeds in increasing the fun factor of the set. Going by this rule, an example of a 'bad' achievement might be a missable achievement that spoils the location/existence of a one time piece of equipment. (What was the payoff to telling me other than to make completing the set more of a hassle?) After that, I think context matters somewhat. Achievements don't exist in a vacuum, so a set may be better or worse depending what platform it exists on. For instance, RA has site awards for completing a set, for this reason easier sets are arguably more suited to the site. (Maybe?) Despite all those rules, I always love it when the set mirrors whatever built in achievements/medals/ awards/skill points, or whatever the game has 1 to 1. The in-game achievements in that particular game aren't necessarily even designed well but I just appreciate the elegance of having such of a set. I think that's what was done here with Black Rock Shooter: The Game. That said, games with multiplayer-only achievements may make this awkward. In those cases, for the set to be truly 1:1 it would have unattainable achievements. So I guess it's okay to omit those. P.S. While pondering 'achievement design', I did notice that achievements usually fall into a few categories. - beating the game - progress markers (i.e. achievements you'd get no matter what while beating the game, such as 'finished chapter 2', etc. It's arguable what value these achievements offer and whether they are really needed.) - 'pop the disc in' achievements. A gimmie achievement of sorts that you get right at the start of the game, such as for competing the tutorial. It's probably good to have these just to make sure that achievements are working. - post game content (arguably the most valuable type of achievement. Provides added incentive to do the things in a game that was already 'beaten'.) - side modes (same principle as above) - variety ('get 50 kills with x weapon' for every weapon in the game. 'beat the game with this character' for each character/class. I really like these, at least most of the time.) - feats of skill (such as getting a certain score/time in a particular stage, that isn't tied to completion at all. These are more suited to games with a level select or sports/racing/fighting games, not RPGs.) (Arguably the most difficult achievement to balance, since it requires deciding on a exact score or lap time that players may end up finding is too hard, or too easy.) - hidden items ('find all hidden packages' or 'find x of them'. Easter eggs fall under the same principle.) - grinding ('play for 100 hours', 'get 10,000 kills' etc. These are probably among the least justifiable achievements.) I guess the question is what would be best balance of the above categories, without overdoing it.
FabinSS	Posted: 29 Oct, 2021 12:01 A Bug's Life (PS1), the game is pretty simple but the achievements are hard and make you actually master the game. The worst for me are RPGs or no damaging things where you respawn too far. The developers should have more caution with missables. No one wants to play an RPG again just because some 5 or 10 points.
cart	Posted: 30 Oct, 2021 18:05 I'm new to this site, though I feel the two games I have played that are supported have imo well balanced and are closer to the achievements you might see the developers implement with some fun extras on the side. Those two games being Snatcher and MGS1. The extras I liked because they didn't have alot of points associated with them and to me were more of a hint that there is some animation or dialogue in the game I didn't know existed and gave me a general understanding of how to see that obscured content. I have looked at some achievements for some other games I intend on playing and they are kind of insane in that the time requirements for their sets make it so you basically only play that one game and grind out things that really have nothing to do with progression within the game to perform those tasks would solely serve the purpose of getting that achievement. Like killing 10,000 of X or Y. I find these odd for 2 reasons, A. they take you out of the game and you are now playing a lengthy and mini game of grinding your life away and B. they serve no purpose in furthering your development or progression in the game and are thus pointless and completely arbitrary. I think having such achievements for people that only play that 1 or 2 games for months on end is fine... but those games seem to de-emphasize progression bearing achievements such as beating the final boss or getting the good ending (in terms of points) or skill based achievements such as taking on a difficult sequence and not taking damage etc.. Though I disagree with egg in terms of progression markers. I have never been a trophy hunter so I'm likely coming from another perspective. But the progression markers are important for 2 reasons. The first giving you the idea how many people actually got beyond the first chapter.. let alone beat the game. The other being generally entering a new act or a marked progression point generally entails you overcame an obstacle of some kind.. if you overcame this obstacle to continue on your journey but just scrapped by at least you feel a sense of achievement.. with well.. an achievement and the other being that you can complement progression markers with skill based markers so if you overcame the obstacle with perfection than you can get that rare achievement. So all parties can fill satisfied.
ElderIlem	Posted: 31 Oct, 2021 10:16 Last Edit: 31 Oct, 2021 17:58 I've been an RA user for nearly three years now but have never introduced myself properly. It's finally time to say "Hi!" and delve into my first forum post. In essence, I enjoy core achievement sets that make me spend time with a game but don't make me waste my time with a game. The achievements for Plok! (SNES) are the best example I can think of for an enjoyable set. When I completed the Plok! set last winter, I commented there that I enjoyed it because it asked me to make it through the game and then to do that well. The achievements for that game are a nice mix of general progression, seeking out and using various power-ups, and finding and actually completing warp stages. On top of that come achievements that measure skill by asking players to either make it through a set of stages without dying or to complete individual boss fights without getting hit. There are a few arbitrary "collect x number of an item" and "reach a score of x" achievements which I'm not a big fan of for any game, but those make up only a tiny part of the set and can be attained rather easily by just playing the game normally, albeit somewhat well (no continues for the higher score achievements), and without grinding. Because the game has two difficulty modes, the easier of which doesn't allow a player to complete the game's story in its entirety, the progression achievements actually serve as a nice hint that there may be more to the game than you've seen so far. It was a fun achievement set because it made playing through Plok! fun and challenging without artificially adding to the challenge the game already poses in the last few stages. The achievement set for Myst (3DO Interactive Multiplayer) is another fine example, although on another level. It's mostly a very straightforward collection of plot points in the game, but written as a sort of travelogue (mirroring some of the game's content) that attempts to guide the player but not give away too much information about the puzzles and their respective solution. Because of its structure, Myst doesn't lend itself to highly creative achievement design, and the set's author, MGNS8M, has done a great job to instead name and describe the achievements in a creatively interesting way. So that's what makes core achievement sets enjoyable to me: have me see as much of the game as possible (in terms of both plot points, game mechanics, and secrets that were intentionally placed within the game world), have some fun with the game mechanics within the bounds of normal gameplay (no glitches and exploits), and develop a reasonable skill level so I don't just tank through enemies and stages whatever the cost. For RPGs, seeing as much of the game as possible then entails careful design so that important plot points aren't immediately spoiled - but perhaps for a first playthrough of a game, it's best to not look at the list of achievements beforehand, anyway. There's little in terms of forced repetition in these sets - you don't need to play the game, its worlds/chapters or stages over and over again to accomplish most of these achievements - and I'd say there are no achievements that impose a too hefty skill requirement to play perfectly just for perfection's sake.
DEATHDragon	Posted: 07 Nov, 2021 00:56 Last Edit: 07 Nov, 2021 00:58 For me it has to be Mega Man 2 (NES) in terms on how to do a GOOD set of achievements, challenging, but not too demanding. It brings a balance on how the game should be played more carefully and improves your skills overall. Another example is Crash Bandicoot 2: Cortex Strikes Back (PlayStation) . Not for the progress achievements, but the time trial ones, Crash 2 doesn't have time trials, and for the maker to make trials for those levels is a stroke of genius, as it makes players replay the levels more strategically, putting your knowledge of the levels to the test. Simply wonderful. Brave Fencer Musashi (PlayStation) (which is the first game i ever mastered on this site) not only provided with really well made achievements for different minigames, but also challenges like beating the game without upgrades or within a certain time. And while these limitations sound simple in paper, these are actually pretty important to the progress of the game at times. It was a really fun game to master. Now, Mega Man 3 (NES) and Mega Man Legends (PlayStation) are examples on to NOT do achievements. In case of MM3, the Doc Robot bosses. Not only they expect you to beat them without using special weapons, but also without the use of E-Tanks. Ok, where's the problem with that you might say? Oh, idk, maybe in that the bosses take a good chunk of health when they hit you? And two of them specifically are awful to deal with because you have to do precise timing with your jumps, almost TAS like, and the other one you have to abuse the damage boost in order to survive the fight. When you die, you have to do the entire section of the level again, now imagine doing that over and over again for hours. Not fun. In case of MML, most of the achievements are OK, is the last 8 which are infamous, forcing you to not only replay the game, but replay it in ways that make you abuse exploits or just annoy the hell out of you. One of them specifically demands you to kill enemies by kicking the bombs enemies shoot at you. You hit an enemy accidentally with a kick? You have to restart, worst part is that there's a section where you have to get inside a cage and kill worms, but you have to lure an enemy that shoots bombs inside the cage with you, and you have to avoid kicking the worms or killing the enemy that shoots bombs at you. Then the other ones are time trials that you have to abuse an exploit that allows you to walk faster to make it in time and depend on RNG to make the enemy AI cooperate with you. Making it enragingly hard to accomplish. Again, not fun.
egg	Posted: 07 Nov, 2021 09:30 Last Edit: 07 Nov, 2021 09:36 Maybe this is too early to call, since I haven't 100%ed the set quite yet (just a few to go), but Medal of Honor Heroes is nearly the perfect set in my book. Although having said that said, it's missing skirmish mode achievements. Seems like a missed opportunity. The game made it for launch though, so I can't complain. (And I imagine the dev was more focused on making that Monster Hunter set, which also made it at launch. Wow.)
tinycyan	Posted: 07 Nov, 2021 15:22 progression cheevos are important or you end up with ff7 set
televandalist	Posted: 07 Nov, 2021 16:24 progression cheevos are important or you end up with ff7 set Beyond Midgar (5) Reminiscence ~ Scars Carved by Fire (5) Golden Feathers (5) Valse Aerith (10) Reminiscence ~ False Relations (5) Reminiscence ~ The Bitter Taste of Truth (5) Broken Diamond (5) Chemical Mess (5) Duel of the Blades (25) And plenty of non-progression cheevos between each one that you would have to actively avoid or play terribly to not get.
echoscreen	Posted: 08 Nov, 2021 06:08 Last Edit: 08 Nov, 2021 06:12 Maybe also because it's my favorite game of all time, but tralph3 made the best set possible for Final Fantasy IX (PlayStation) , IMO. It has progression, speedrunning, collecting, all of the side quests and minigames, and various other challenges in a neat 100 cheevo set. Some of them are hard as hell though, but worth it. To top it off, the Nero side quest was new for me so I learned something new about the game after all these years. Just have to say though, there are so many great sets on here and I don't mean to put one on a pedestal over others.
jeftah	Posted: 08 Nov, 2021 06:20 Megaman X, X2 and X3 for SNES are fantastic. Haven't done the rest of the X series yet for PSX or Saturn. They cover all the bases from buster only, to no upgrade runs.